“Feel” nice trick to make it sound like they are spoiled and not just doing basic math to figure out that everything is expensive.
I mean yeah. I make above that and it feels genuinely hard to keep up with the costs of living middle class in California.
THE RENT
IS
TOO
DAMN
HIGH
Trying to find a place to live where the rent won’t take over 50% of my income. I work full time teaching disabled children, and after successfully negotiating for a raise, I make over $10 more per hour than my state’s minimum wage.
Yet for some reason, everyone takes issue when I say I’m ready to just move into my car. I’ve lived in a vehicle before, it’s not fun or easy, but it’s a roof I already own, and from the rent prices I see, that’s the best chance I’ve got to be guaranteed shelter.
I got lucky enough to live on benefits, a bit less than $15,000 annually. While I don’t have to pay for housing, things like food, data, and car take up a good chunk of that money. Up until about 2 years ago, I was also able to regularly set aside about $300 a month for an ABLE account if I exercised restraint.
The economy continues to worsen, so I can’t save money anymore. Plus, getting the gear and training for joining a militia takes a fair bit of coin. I am expecting the USA we knew to dissolve someday, and hopefully can support my state with my body if conflict breaks out. Don’t really have anything else to offer society.
Half of California:
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Half by land, much more by population. California’s basic cost of living is insane. $150k would be “barely scraping by in a studio apartment” within 100 miles of any major city.
With the exception of places like Anzo Borrego, but there’s a reason for that. Horrible summers and winters.
The other way to read this data is that 75% (a sizable majority) of people feel they can be comfortable on less than $150k. I also suspect this strongly correlates to location. Someone living in Washington, DC is going to need a lot more to feel comfortable than someone living in Bumblefuck, MO.
I just need a dwelling and a guarantee of food to live comfortably. If I didn’t have to pay for that I wouldn’t need $150k/year. 🤷♂️
You forgot healthcare!
I don’t nees to make more, everything else needs to cost less. 😠
Yeah, sounds about right if you want to be able to be comfortable at home and have money for maybe a modest vacation once a year.
I make way less, but it would be nice to be able to afford to travel at least once a year. Not worry about car repairs setting me back etc etc.
Don’t forget any shot at a reasonable retirement too
I’m planning to die to reduce my spend.
That is, most literally, my plan. Not going to suicide, but either the environment or shit politics will take me out before I’m too elderly.
And I’m not being snarky. No healthcare and seeing the ecosystem collapse has done me in. And for the young, you haven’t seen the shit I’ve seen. Our systems are racing towards a cliff. You’d be even madder if you had lived my young life and seen where we’re at now.
I’m either going to die in the water riots or I’ll be shot dead by a Google Amazon compliance assistance team for using an adblocker.
My wife and I make about $100k/yr combined. I can absolutely confirm that 50% more money will go directly into making our lives more comfortable.
Why is the cost of living so incredibly high in the US?
It cannot be because of consumer goods. Because both Europe and the US have similar prices for those since they are made by international companies.
It cannot be food, the US is a big exporter of food. And those exports go to countries with lower costs of living.
It cannot be vacations. You could “just” fly to Europe and have european vacation prices.
Is it just housing and healthcare?
Yes it is housing and healthcare. Even with health insurance, a major sickness can bankrupt anybody, especially when insurance denies coverage.
Which is why I’m considering a Do Not Resuscitate. I don’t want some asshole EMT to bring me back.
Wage theft. Seriously, it is the biggest drain of money from ordinary workers.
That’s a large portion of it yes. Don’t forget that 150k salary is before taxes. The cost of food has sky rocketed lately. Don’t forget transportation. If you live in a big city you might take a bus or Metro, but for most Americans there isn’t a good network so add gas, car insurance, and possibly a car payment if you don’t own. And if you have kids get ready for child care expenses, unless you have a stay at home parent… But then you only have one income. Rent, utilities, little glasses for Timmy, cell phone bills and those TV subscriptions you’re slowly sailing the high seas on as they nickel and dime you. It all adds up.
Europeans also buy little glasses for Timmy and such. I don’t think the price of those kind of things is much different. Same for utilities, phone and TV. The one I’m most uncertain about is utilities, but I believe electricity at least is usually cheaper in america.
The car one is fair. Although it’s true that in Europe there’s also tons of people on cars, public transit is at least a valid option, unlike in much of the US.
Taxes is not though. Taxes in america are usually way lower than in Europe.
So transportation+healthcare are the only expenses that are clearly more expensive in america. Housing being highly dependant on location is hard to compare nation-based. And it’s also the biggest component. I’d be curious to see the actual “living wage” difference between two places, one Europeans and another American with similar housing prices.
Ten years ago, things might have been cheaper, but not any longer. I’m an American living in an expensive part of Europe, while also maintaining a place in a similarly expensive part of the US. I’m going to say Europe Here but I’m referring to our specific corner of Europe which has a huge range of costs. Similar for the US. Here are my actual numbers:
Electricity: Europe: 99€ US: $95
Internet: Europe: 26€ US: $62
mobile phone (per line): Europe: 17€ US: $40
grocery budget (monthly) family of two: Europe: 750€ US: $900
Health insurance monthly (private): Europe: 190€ US: $800 (partially subsidized by work, real price closer to $1200)
Car insurance monthly: Europe: 105€ US: $195
Petrol costs monthly: Europe: 225€ ~7€/gallon US: $250 ~$3.50/gallon
Oil change at car dealership: Europe: 70€ US: $95
US mortgage + tax + insurance (2 bedroom house): $1775
Europe rent + renter insurance: 1225€
Local mid range restaurant: Europe: 62€ US: $105
Dog grooming: Europe: 60€ US: $95
Vet visit: Europe: 60€ US: $150
Doctors visit (with insurance): Europe: 30€ US: $50
Diagnostic labs (with insurance): Europe: 30€ US: $150
The US has become shockingly expensive. Some of this is because we spend more to eat quality food when there, and we are in a bit of a touristy area. Both locations are in touristy areas though, so not entirely different. I might be in the minority but I don’t see much difference in lifestyle between the two areas I frequent.
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The fruits and vegetables are about the same price but taste much better in Europe.
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The bread is far cheaper, more available and better in Europe.
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The specialty products we like to eat are much cheaper in Europe. Eg, feta cheese, french butter and jam, etc.
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The meat is about the same, maybe a bit cheaper in Europe. I don’t taste much difference.
The most important differences for us are:
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If we don’t feel good we go the the emergency room in Europe. Yes we will wait a long time to be seen, but the cost last time was 175€. In the US, you will wait a day to see if you feel better, because you are going to wait just as long and the bill will be a minimum of $1200 with insurance.
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We do not take the car out every day in Europe, because we can walk to a small grocery store, medical lab, print shop, bakery. We must take the car out for any trip in the US, and the distances are longer.
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Customer service in Europe is sometimes not all that helpful, and they give that impression to you when talking to them. Customer service in the US seems very nice and accommodating, but they are equally unhelpful in most cases.
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People you hire to do work for you seem to have far more variability in the US. They might be extraordinarily expensive, super cheap, might not show up, etc. In Europe, the prices seem to be on average cheaper than the US, and the workers on average a bit more reliable, but more laid back and less busy than in the US.
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And finally, most importantly, any company you deal with in the US will constantly try to extract more and more from you. Every year, prices ratchet up, new charges are itemized, things previously included now cost extra, billing mistakes are created and they are never in your favor. In Europe our experience is that companies you deal with mostly maintain prices. To be fair, some of these are sanctioned monopolies, but the same is true in the US and somehow they do it anyway. This has been our experience with insurance, utilities, car maintenance, etc. The system wears you down in the US until you have no fight left.
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There are cost of living calculators that give very basic averages of areas. I can tell when I lived in NC I paid about 30$ for car insurance. But when I lived in Detroit MI I payed about 300$. Monthly. That was about 7-8 years ago. Apartments in my small little town in PA are going for about 1500-1800$ for a 1 bedroom apartment. For healthcare I pay about 200$ a week. That’s for a family of 3.
Housing is expensive in the UK as well isn’t it? Most times I hear prices they seem pretty comparable. Just like the US there is also a large variation by location of course, cities completely unaffordable and towns just very expensive.
Around me is ~65m² bungalows, £225-275k in a town quite a long way from London, along the south coast. London prices scare me so I try and pretend nothing exists within the M25.
1 in 4 sounds more than ~25% but it’s 25% that’s a minority that feel this way, it’s not a reflection of most of our realities. Yes the cost of living is too high but ~75% don’t feel we need $150,000 to be comfortable
That’s fair. Although I need to point out that the title literally says “more than 1 in 4” which makes it kinda funny.
Well, it would be incredibly naive to omit or not factor in all the tax-raping. You make $150K, good for you, but you don’t get to keep that. Using my state, I Googled how much money is stolen when you earn $150K…they steal $45,442. Leaving you with $104,558. How generous of them. 🙄
So the average person wants to make $150K annually SO THEY CAN KEEP just slightly over $100K. Then yes, the health care & the bills & the savings & the spending. It can chew through $100K quickly enough.
Ignoring all the taxation is theft bullshit, my original question is how is america so expensive that living wages are considered 8x of the highest minimum wages of europe (Less than 20k).
America has lower taxes than any European country. So that cannot be the answer.
*income taxes are lower in America
I would argue that the overall tax burden to the government is not all that different. Income tax rates are higher in Europe, 37% in the US at my top tier and about 47% in Europe at the same top tier. However, the US has a lot of hidden taxes, and a whole lot of corporate parasitism which functions as a tax
So tell me. What are those hidden taxes?
What type of corporate parasitism are you referring to that hurts Americans more than Europeans?
Of course! On a house we could purchase in France, the property tax will be around $1300€. I pay $4000 in the US, up from $1800 in 2021.
The $4000 in the US surprisingly doesn’t actually cover anything. My city charges my around $75 monthly for trash service. I also have a county solid waste fee to pay. Last year I replaced my air conditioning, and the county permit to do this was $500. I am lucky because some cities require an HVAC technician licensed in that city, which obviously charge a big premium. My electricity company, a monopoly in my area, charges $26 each month in state maintenance fund fees and delivery charges, separate from my electricity consumption. What are these?
My home insurance is also around $4000, and is required by my mortgage. There is unfortunately only one provider in my area, and they include policy disclaimers that they may not be able to pay claims at all, and that I can’t sue them if they are insolvent. They raise their rate about 25% per year.
My car insurance also consistently raises rates by double digit percentages, but they do it quietly by simply “auto renewing” at the increased amount. This is without accidents or tickets, and a vehicle which is another year older.
VAT is 20% in France, but is included in the prices at the grocery store, and not included on essential food items. In my area in the US, we owe 7% sales tax on essential items.
Speaking of my grocery store in the US, it is essentially a monopoly and they charge outrageous prices for many things because they can. The nearest health clinic to my house in the US is owned by private equity, and a visit with some routine scans and lab work will precipitate an array of invoices from random medical billing offices all over the country, for seemingly random amounts.
As someone who has lived in a number of different countries as an expat over the years, the US is unique in the scale of the day to day extraction. Living in an apartment, from my experience, is far worse in the US. Things like COVID sanitization fee $500, mandatory parcel hold service, $29, mandatory trash concierge, $29, community utilities, $50, deposit insurance $299, etc etc etc. Everything is an unregulated opportunity to extract. You can sue for really egregious things and outright fraud, but it costs $75 to do that, plus you have to pay a private process server to start the lawsuit. Do you have time to do that for everything?
The true state of the way things are in America should be a warning for Europeans to avoid going down that path. Our federal income tax is lower in the US, but we have significant tax bills due at the many levels of government from neighborhood, municipality, county, and state. Maybe it is less than 10% of some people’s income, but not most people.
It was nice to learn of all this bullshit. Thank you.
oh fun, an actual “taxation is theft” person. i’m assuming you don’t drive?
On one hand, it’s reasonable for Americans to be upset with their taxes because they pay so much and get so little in return. On the other hand, you never see these people complaining about how so much their taxes go to corporate handouts and plunder instead of useful things like socialized health care, child care, housing, etc. instead it becomes all about them personally. It’s very telling. The US is a land of mentally ill sycophants.
I drive more than you, and I see the point you’re trying to make but it doesn’t work in my state.
ok, just checking
Wow I can’t believe how little you understand about what taxes are and how they work. The US has some of the lowest tax rates compared to its peers.
Those are pretty low taxes
Yeah, this hits home all right. I’m Gen-X, and while I always got by OK on a very low income even here in Seattle, it was entirely due to have a very modest lifestyle and the sheer luck of that rarest of Seattle unicorns, reasonable rent.
The stars aligned, and over the course of only a few years I’ve suddenly moved into a very comfortable 6 figure salary, and oh holy jebus words cannot express how much stress just…evaporates…when you’ve got enough to cover all expenses and easily sock away some money too.
Of course, that was promptly replaced by a new stress, the realization that I might just possibly thread the needle and end up with a comfortable retirement—not rich mind you, just not in penury—but I now had to save, save, save, save, save.
Work affords me access to both a 403B and a 457B, which has helped immensely in my quest to get savings built up appropriate for my age bracket, but all that anxiety is back now that I’ve got a retirement fund that was on track, but now the orange twitiot is doing his damndest to wreck our economy, likely for good. I’m just waiting to watch everything I’ve invested go up in smoke. It’s nerve-wracking, but hey, at least I’m Gen-X and know exactly what it’s like to live with existential dread. After a childhood fearing nuclear holocaust at any moment, this new anxiety is practically a cakewalk!
Oh, who am I kidding? It still sucks.
Fuck.Just want to say, to a fellow slacker, I get you. OTOH, my nerves aren’t too wrecked yet. Like you, I know how to be poor, but fuck me, I didn’t expect an environmental and political holocaust to drop on my old ass.
This title is so dumb. Just say 26% of Americans.
Who cares what people “feel”? It has nothing to do with “feelings”. Just calculate how much it actually costs to live comfortably, and you’ll find that $150k works.
You can’t define “comfortably” without feeling.
You can, though. At least to the extent of saying that “comfortable” means that all your basic needs are met, and you have money left over for more than that. How much more, is a matter of preference…but as long as that basic minimum is met, the rest is just different degrees of comfort.
Read the article. It tells you the numbers, and has an alternative definition of “comfortable”: financially secure.
Make sure to read before telling people what’s meant.
Well, then I can say that $40k is definitely “comfortable.” That’s $1500 rent, $300/month food, another $200 gas/elec/internet, a thousand left over for odds & ends and another couple hundred saved.
Pretty much my budget in a MCOL major metro.
What about taxes? Health Insurance? Car insurance or transportation budget. You can live comfortably on $10 a day for food?? $3.30 a meal? That eats up the rest of that $1300 a month and leaves nothing for entertainment, savings, gifts or dating. Nothing left for meeting that health insurance deductible so you still can’t go to the doctor. Survivable? Absolutely! Doesn’t sound comfortable to me though.
Don’t really have taxes at that income level. In the US, ACA pays full insurancne premium (currently, that will change if the billionaire tax cut passes), and ‘wellness checkups’ are $0 out-of-pocket by law. Most of my dinner recipes are around $2.50/serving at 900 calories. I’m able to walk most places I go, but car insurance is $100/month. Don’t feel like dating, raising kids, or making big vacations. I average something around $7-800/month on ‘entertainment’ like video games & hobby materials, which leaves $300-400 savings. $350/month is 10%, which is around 2x the US average savings rate (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT). Savings for emergencies like insurance deductible and for retirement.
But that’s my point: my housing probably isn’t everyone’s idea of ‘comfortable,’ my diet is pretty carb-heavy and probably not everyone’s idea of ‘comfortable.’ I like it, though. It feels comfortable to me; I don’t consciously restrict any of my spending - all the numbers I’ve given you are post hoc analysis. I’ve been doing it for a decade.
I don’t dispute people feeling like they need $150k to live comfortably. Lots of people want kids. Lots of people want to take a nice vacation time-to-time. There’s a massive propaganda machine out there trying to convince everyone that they need just a little more than they have right now to feel good about themselves, and I believe that propaganda starts wearing thin by the time you get to $150k, $200k. They’ve got to live their life; I can only live mine.
You don’t have kids? Plan to retire? Have an emergency savings amount? No credit card debt? Car loans? Student loans?
I probably should have been more clear when I said “minimum basic requirements”. I wasn’t talking “survival”…I was talking about “comfort”. The point at which you are no longer living paycheck-to-paycheck.
I was also assuming household income…not individual…so I should have been more specific there, as well.
I make about twice what you calculated, and my bank account is consistently at zero after all my household expenses are covered. That’s for my family…not just me. I have no emergency savings, which means if anything in my life breaks down, I go into debt just to pay for repairs…and it takes months to finish paying it off. That’s not “comfortable”. It’s eternally stressful, since emergencies like that usually come up more often than I can pay off the last one.
My point, though, was that it’s all quantifiable. Even the differences between individual circumstances can be calculated. Everyone can look at their life and “know” the number that would get them into that “comfort zone”.
That’s what I said: “Comfortable” depends on feelings. Once you know what feels comfortable, then you can quantify.
Feelings are important because without them, there would be a concrete number of dollars at which a person starves to death. One more dollar and they live. Once we know that number, the right wing will begin pushing everyone towards it.
Feelings are important because I want to enjoy a twinkie every now and then. I want to be able to afford a day off for mental health, or a friend’s birthday. There should be healthy ambiguity in the number of dollars it costs to live because without it there’s just near-starvation.
Wanting a Twinkie here and there and a new iPad/car every year is very different. What you want is found pretty much anywhere that isn’t touched by imperialism and war in general, lol. But maybe the average American can’t be happy and comfortable without many expensive toys? Or life is just expensive AF invariably there, idk.
The article mentions “living comfortable” as “financially secure”. Financial security generally means having enough money to comfortably cover your current living expenses and future financial needs, without undue worry about money.
Mmm. I guess academic and medical debt are scary by themselves, and that’s a very American experience I completely forgot about…
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